8 Replies Latest reply: Apr 10, 2013 10:57 AM by ktkutz RSS

TIMESHARE AND REWARD POINTS

lesliepamel Platinum
Currently Being Moderated

I POSTED THIS MESSAGE THE OTHER DAY AND IT RATHER SURPRISINGLY  DIDN'T APPEAR TO GENERATE  MUCH INTEREST. HOWEVER I FEAR THAT IT JUST MIGHT HAVE BEEN LOST BY THE VOLUME OF MAIL THAT FOLLOWED IT. IF I MAY JUST RE-PRINT IT, AND ASK THE QUESTION, " IS THERE ANY ACCOUNTANT OR TIMESHARE SALESPERSON/ TIMESHARE DIVISION ASSOCIATE WHO WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON MY FIGURES?

Marriott Rewards

 

Original posted on Jan 13, 2010 8:19 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

TJC, Thanks for that. I have seen a copy of those awards previously. Please let me explain further - I know that you will already know this - but it might be of interest to other readers.

A travel package at 310,000 points will give a member 7 nights in a cat 6 hotel for 210,000 points  NO EXTRA BONUS NIGHT) and 100,000 points to purchase two seats for a transatlantic journey or similar.

That award used to be 200,000 points, and before that 140,000 points

So what is the value of that award today?

Two flights will cost before tax - a member has to pay cash for the tax on the flight ..............£700

7 nights in an hotel. Say the World Centre in Orlando.

Feb 12 2010                                     £1165

TOTAL VALUE                                    £1865

Now how much does all that cost?

Three weeks of timeshare traded at 110,000 per week = 330,000 points

The administration charge for this exchange is £213.

The rental value of timeshare, Cypress on Feb 12 at £1127 x 3 weeks                                 £3381

Total                                                 £ 4081 

So a value of £1865 is gained at a cost of £4081  

That is why I no longer exchange my timeshare for points.

In my opinion Marriott should inflation proof the points given for timeshare exchange by a figure of 2.85 - the same rate used for the increase in the maintenace fee. I believe with this situation being allowed to rise Marriott has gouged a lot of it's owners. It should now do the right thing for owners and increase the points. However Rewards was never part of the timeshare contract so Marriot could if they wished quite legally withdraw the points connexion. However this would most likely 1. Start a big exodus sale. 2. Ensure that 400,000 members never made a paid stay at a Marriott hotel for the rest of their lives. 3 It would see MVCI quickly failing, and 4. It would invite a bad press.

So all I can say to fellow MVCI owners is look very carefully at the value that you are obtaining when you exchange your time for reward points.

Leslie P 

 

 

 

(For each location tag, you will be guided through a 3-step process to add (1) a city and a state or a city and a country, (2) a Marriott brand, and (3) a Marriott hotel.)

  • Re: TIMESHARE AND REWARD POINTS
    hawaiiowner Platinum
    Currently Being Moderated

    With the recent major MR devaluation, it was clear to me from Day One that an owner should never exchange his week for points if he or she wanted a fair value for his week.  I cannot quibble with your figures.

    (For each location tag, you will be guided through a 3-step process to add (1) a city and a state or a city and a country, (2) a Marriott brand, and (3) a Marriott hotel.)

  • Re: TIMESHARE AND REWARD POINTS
    tjcnewyork Platinum
    Currently Being Moderated

    LesliePamel and MVCIowner:

     

    "That is why I no longer exchange my timeshare for points."

     

    Very interesting example.  To make it easier to understand, the approximate value rounded to $US is shown side-by-side: 

     

    "A travel package at 310,000 points will give a member 7 nights in a cat 6 hotel for 210,000 points  NO EXTRA BONUS NIGHT) and 100,000 points to purchase two seats for a transatlantic journey or similar.

    That award used to be 200,000 points, and before that 140,000 points

    So what is the value of that award today?

    • Two flights will cost before tax - a member has to pay cash for the tax on the flight £700/$1,143
    • 7 nights in an hotel. Say the World Centre in Orlando.
    • Feb 12 2010                                     £1165/$1,901
    • TOTAL VALUE                                    £1865/$3,044

    Now how much does all that cost?

    • 3 weeks of timeshare traded at 110,000 per week = 330,000 points
    • The administration charge for this exchange is £213/$348
    • The rental value of timeshare on Feb 12 at £1127 x 3 weeks is £3381/$1,839
    • Total                                                 £ 4081/$6,660 
    • So a value of £1865/$3,044is gained at a cost of £4081/$6,660 

     

    That is why I no longer exchange my timeshare for points."

     

    Put simply, the above example illustrates 'Sticker Shock'. That said, there are some aspects that merit scrutiny.  Why use rental value instead of actual Maintenance Fees? 

     

    TIMESHARE AND REWARD POINTS:  Going down a different path... it costs £7.65/$12.50 to buy 1,000 points or £841/$1,375 to buy 110,000 points.  That would be £2524/$4,125 for 330,000 points.  The 2010 maintenance fee at Sabal Palms for Red Season (WEEKS 7-17, 24-33, 50-52) is £716/$1170.   So. trading for points is actually cheaper by about £122/$200 less. 

     

    TIMESHARE AND VALUE:  £716/$1170 at Sabal delivers 8 days 7 nights in a 2 bedroom 2 bath villa with sleeping accomodations for 6 and a fully-equipped kitchen with a W/D plus complimentary parking during a very highly coveted week like Week 52, Christmas to New Years.  Can $1170 deliver week 52 for six at MOWC?   At an Advance Purchase Rate, Paid in Full, the Marriott Orlando World Center can only deliver a 1 bedroom King Suite with a sofabed at $329 per night from 25 Dec to 1Jan 2011.  Including valet parking and applicable government taxes, it would cost £1687/$2,755 to sleep a family of 4.  This illustrates that for less than half the cost, it is much more cost-effective and sensible for a group of six to use a 2 bedroom timeshare at Sabal Palms for an 8 day 7 night vacation.

     

    SLIDING VALUE SCALE:  In actuality, there is a sliding value scale that varies by season and destination.  The maintenance fees in Aruba, Hawaii, Marco Island and other vacation clubs exceeds Sabal Palms by more than a factor of 2; but then so does the cost per night in a hotel room at those destinations. That's why exchanging Sabal Palms for Hawaii or Aruba or Marco or Custom House can be an incredible value and supercedes trading for points, IMHO.


    LesliePamel and MVCIOwner, are we on the same page?

    (For each location tag, you will be guided through a 3-step process to add (1) a city and a state or a city and a country, (2) a Marriott brand, and (3) a Marriott hotel.)

  • Re: TIMESHARE AND REWARD POINTS
    superchief1 Platinum
    Currently Being Moderated

    I currently own five weeks of Marriott timeshares, with the first purchase being several years ago at Royal Palms. I am fortunate in that I never bought one primarily for the intent of redeeming points. My portfolio includes FL and Cal beaches, mountains, and desert.  My main reasons were:

    1. Affordable family vacations at locations I would visit on a regular basis/ intention to use home resort at least 50% of time.

    2. Deeded property, but not requiring the expense/ risk/ ownership hastles of a second home or condo to rent.

    3. Flexiblity to exhange to other nice resorts, primarily within Marriott.

    4. Later purchases were for the intent of longer term visits after retiring, therefore lock-offs provide 2 weeks for the price of one.

    5. Flexibility to convert to Marriott Rewards points to stay in resorts in locations without timeshares.

    Leslie's analysis clearly shows that the point redemption is no longer of any value, so my primary reason for keeping Royal Palms has been eliminated. However, I still like visiting the area occasionally and my daughters are likely to use it in the future when they have families. I now rent my unused weeks at my cost to other family members and coworkers, and they greatly appreciate the vacation value.

    My main concern at this time is whether MVC will further erode the value of my ownership by converting to a costly/ inflexible internal exchange program or will continue to take away facility access to resorts, similar to what recently happened at Desrert Spring Villas I.

    (For each location tag, you will be guided through a 3-step process to add (1) a city and a state or a city and a country, (2) a Marriott brand, and (3) a Marriott hotel.)

  • Re: TIMESHARE AND REWARD POINTS
    lesliepamel Platinum
    Currently Being Moderated

    TJC,

    Put simply, the above example illustrates 'Sticker Shock'. That said, there are some aspects that merit scrutiny.  Why use rental value instead of actual Maintenance Fees? 

    Well my answer to that question is: I paid $13,200 per week for my MRP timeshare. Using rental value takes this money into account, using maintenance fees only does not. The owners of a Marriott hotel don't rent there rooms out simply for the cost of maintaining the site, they just have to consider the capital invested in the project and what return they require from that capital  before publishing a room rate. I realise that timeshare is small beer when compared to a Marriott hotel, but the capital employed in the vacation plan must be taken into account.

    The best way I know how to do this for myself is to divide the capital cost by the number of years owned. therefore this is a slowly eroding amount. It is currently $13,200 / 25 years = $528. In the year 2035 this will be $13200 / 50 = $264. One could also consider subtracting any potential re-sale value. So $13200 - $4500 (resale value) = $8700 capital employed. In this case the releveant figures for 25 and 50 years are $348 and $174. 

    This shows that for example a stay at my home resort at MRP would this year cost me $348 + the maintenance fee of $1135 = $ 1483. These places currently rent at  $1803 per week.

    Wow! I never realised that...My vacation planning for the last 25 years means that I save only $320 oneach vacation week. What an untruthful salesman, working to a corrupt system.

    If you now consider the current Marriott promotion - 20% off evertything world wide - the rental value for my timeshare is only $1442 - $41 cheaper than I am paying to stay at my home resort. Marriott must address this matter urgently before the press realises exactly what sort of timeshare sharks the company is. They could start by reducing the maintenance fee by 50% 

    I'm now quite shocked. I had never worked those figures out like that before. The vacation salesman said that I would be having really cheap vacations 25 years after my purchase, and that my kids would be having a ball 50 years on. What a lying toad! 

     

     

    TIMESHARE AND REWARD POINTS:  Going down a different path... it costs $12.50 to buy 1,000 points or $1,375 to buy 110,000 points.  That would be $4,125 for 330,000 points.  The 2010 maintenance fee at Sabal Palms for Red Season (WEEKS 7-17, 24-33, 50-52) is $1170.   So. trading for points is actually cheaper by about $200 less. 

    My answer to that is that you must consider the administartion cost of trading for points, this is currently $341. So my conclusion is the opposite to yours - Trading for points is more expensive.

    Best regards,

    LeslieP

     

    TIMESHARE AND VALUE:  £716/$1170 at Sabal delivers 8 days 7 nights in a 2 bedroom 2 bath villa with sleeping accomodations for 6 and a fully-equipped kitchen with a W/D plus complimentary parking during a very highly coveted week like Week 52, Christmas to New Years.  Can $1170 deliver week 52 for six at MOWC?   At an Advance Purchase Rate, Paid in Full, the Marriott Orlando World Center can only deliver a 1 bedroom King Suite with a sofabed at $329 per night from 25 Dec to 1Jan 2011.  Including valet parking and applicable government taxes, it would cost £1687/$2,755 to sleep a family of 4.  This illustrates that for less than half the cost, it is much more cost-effective and sensible for a group of six to use a 2 bedroom timeshare at Sabal Palms for an 8 day 7 night vacation.

     



    (For each location tag, you will be guided through a 3-step process to add (1) a city and a state or a city and a country, (2) a Marriott brand, and (3) a Marriott hotel.)

  • Re: TIMESHARE AND REWARD POINTS
    lesliepamel Platinum
    Currently Being Moderated

    TJC,

    Put simply, the above example illustrates 'Sticker Shock'. That said, there are some aspects that merit scrutiny.  Why use rental value instead of actual Maintenance Fees? 

    Well my answer to that question is: I paid $13,200 per week for my MRP timeshare. Using rental value takes this money into account, using maintenance fees only does not. The owners of a Marriott hotel don't rent there rooms out simply for the cost of maintaining the site, they just have to consider the capital invested in the project and what return they require from that capital  before publishing a room rate. I realise that timeshare is small beer when compared to a Marriott hotel, but the capital employed in the vacation plan must be taken into account.

    The best way I know how to do this for myself is to divide the capital cost by the number of years owned. therefore this is a slowly eroding amount. It is currently $13,200 / 25 years = $528. In the year 2035 this will be $13200 / 50 = $264. One could also consider subtracting any potential re-sale value. So $13200 - $4500 (resale value) = $8700 capital employed. In this case the releveant figures for 25 and 50 years are $348 and $174. 

    This shows that for example a stay at my home resort at MRP would this year cost me $348 + the maintenance fee of $1135 = $ 1483. These places currently rent at  $1803 per week.

    Wow! I never realised that...My vacation planning for the last 25 years means that I save only $320 oneach vacation week. What an untruthful salesman, working to a corrupt system.

    If you now consider the current Marriott promotion - 20% off evertything world wide - the rental value for my timeshare is only $1442 - $41 cheaper than I am paying to stay at my home resort. Marriott must address this matter urgently before the press realises exactly what sort of timeshare sharks the company is. They could start by reducing the maintenance fee by 50% 

    I'm now quite shocked. I had never worked those figures out like that before. The vacation salesman said that I would be having really cheap vacations 25 years after my purchase, and that my kids would be having a ball 50 years on. What a lying toad! 



    (For each location tag, you will be guided through a 3-step process to add (1) a city and a state or a city and a country, (2) a Marriott brand, and (3) a Marriott hotel.)

  • Re: TIMESHARE AND REWARD POINTS
    lesliepamel Platinum
    Currently Being Moderated

    Reference to my last message dated January 18 and timed at 6.35pm....................I ve just been thinking about the sentence : Wow! I never realised that...My vacation planning for the last 25 years means that I save only $320 on each vacation week.

    If I exchanged my MRP week for another Marriott resort I would face additional expendeture of (circa) $115 Interval exchange fee - I am not sure of the American rates) and an Interval membership fee of (circa) $100 p.a. That is a total of $215, which of course means that being a Marriott timeshare owner I get to save $105 on each vacation! 

    So each vacation costs me $ 1698 (Capital,Maintenance,Interval exchange fees, and Interval membership instead of the advertised rental price of $1803.

    Has anyone got a different view on my figures?

    (For each location tag, you will be guided through a 3-step process to add (1) a city and a state or a city and a country, (2) a Marriott brand, and (3) a Marriott hotel.)

    • Re: TIMESHARE AND REWARD POINTS
      absolutelegend1 Platinum 2 Reviews
      Currently Being Moderated

      Personally I also include the interest I would also lose by handing over a chunk of capital to MVCI, which they would be benefiting from in one way or another.

      For a £15,000 capital "investment", I would otherwise be making ~ £450 in interest per annum,

       

      I add that to the maintenance fees (~£950), capital investment devaluation, exchange and membership fees, and soon arrive at the conclusion that it would be simpler, cheaper, and far more flexible to just book my stay when and where I want every year via marriott.com, or one of its competitors.

       

      Don't even start me on the points exchange program.  That's just a none starter on every level.

       

      + hate to say this, but things are only getting worse year on year, with increased fees and points exchanges proving (even more) worthless.

      (For each location tag, you will be guided through a 3-step process to add (1) a city and a state or a city and a country, (2) a Marriott brand, and (3) a Marriott hotel.)

  • Re: TIMESHARE AND REWARD POINTS
    ktkutz Platinum
    Currently Being Moderated

    Thank you for this posting. I also own 2 weeks form MVC and can tell you that this is a point of contention with me and why I will no longer buy additional weeks. in my experience the flexibility to exchange for Marriott Points and use accordingly as you outlined was a key selling feature of the MVC timeshare and was promoted as such. I still have the papers today from our sales presentation with multiple examples as to how the "trading power" of these weeks could be used to exchange for points to travel for 5 days in category 6 level accommodations, which also included other MVC properties. Essentially, over the past few years, with the moves that MVC has made, they have "devalued" the properties by NOT increasing their trade in value along with increasing the points for many of their properties along with excluding MVC properties from point usage. In any other sense, one would consider this a breach of the agreements made with their owners, especially with the pretense that these were sold under. Unfortunately, Marriott has gone from being the best leader in the industry in terms of service and value to being like everyone else. The next one that I buy, will be on a resale! There simply is no other reason to purchase direct.

     

    For those of you considering the new "Points" program, Buyer beware. The same will happen to your purchasing power as well over time. What you think you are getting today will surely cost you more in the future as past performance is the best indicator of future behavior. With over $1.3M rewards points, it is unfortunate to see the program deteriorating.


    (For each location tag, you will be guided through a 3-step process to add (1) a city and a state or a city and a country, (2) a Marriott brand, and (3) a Marriott hotel.)

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