Just to stir the pot some, why do you believe that stopping the rollover nights will make everyone happy?
I'd guess there are far more MR members who love the rollover nights as it gets them to the higher elite level which they would never have made without rollover nights. For the road warriors who spend 1/3 or more of a year at Marriott my guess is the rollover nights only impact their upgrade chances.
Now if you want to get rid of some MR program, how about getting rid of the UA/Marriott nonsense where a UA person who has never spent one night in a Marriott property gets MR Gold status just by signing up which gives them CL access and room upgrade opportunities, there is a program that needs to go NOW!
I was wondering the same thing about both questions. Thank you for your excellent insight, IAHFLYR.
My husband spent 5 years in AL on assignment driving the 400 miles home on weekends. Then for a couple of years, he worked from home. While the rollover nights weren't officially in place during that time, Marriott graciously allowed him elite status during that time. When he was again asked to come to AL for a short while in 2010, I needed to come with him because he'd just had back surgery and couldn't drive himself, or at least, felt uncertain about it.
We've been here for 3 years now so he definitely qualifies on his own, but the consideration given him during his years working from home helped in our decision for staying in TPS and then RI when we got here. The fact that he had elite status during those years affected nobody else. I know that others could use the same consideration.
I guess from gcampell's perspective, the rollover nights do dilute in that they are added to the overall lifetime nights, but the points have to be attained anyway when going for the lifetime status.
IAH, I totally agree with you, removing the rollover nights would not make everyone happy - essentially, anyone who needed rollover nights to make the elite status the following year (and for the record, I'm so worn out by absorbing/fighting recent decreases in program benefits, that I have no problem with an element that has been there from early on).
Randomname, the potential dilution comes from the fact that the more platinums/golds there are (through the rollover program that helps them earn the elite level) the more competition there is for elite benefits like upgrades and the more crowded the concierge lounges are. Having said that, Marriott will always manage the number of elites to their targeted figure; so if not rollover, then United reciprocal perks trade (or something similar) that brings millions of United silvers and above into the gold level (while the Marriott golds got nothing).
Once again, we Insiders are yapping among ourselves while Marriott (in this case literally, as shown by merb) is sitting back watching us eat our young. Marriott, feeling their financial performance oats and apparently replacing every departing customer with a new one, does what they want. Our suggestions/requests for recognition of past loyalty, be they carefully articulated or emotionally pleaded (see below) have fallen on deaf ears for over a year and a half and counting.
Our best weapon is to follow Hall of Fame boxing referee Mills Lane's sage advice, "protect yourself at all times" and share our best ideas for optimizing our travels.
http://www.rewards-insiders.marriott.com/message/81921#81921 - Welcome gift downgraded
http://www.rewards-insiders.marriott.com/thread/9284?start=0&tstart=0 - BOGOs, promised but eliminated
http://www.rewards-insiders.marriott.com/message/77368#77368 Gift cheques eliminated
http://www.rewards-insiders.marriott.com/message/89125#89125 Courtyard and the impact of Insider input
http://www.rewards-insiders.marriott.com/message/50799#50799 Program devaluation
And it goes on and on and on and on..........
I'll certainly admit they're thinking primarily short term. The BOGO program a few years ago had me travelling many weekends that I wouldn't normally travel. One of the incentives was a free companion ticket. That meant I also traveled many other times using those certificates, and paying for hotel rooms.
But it's hard finding any senior management in US corporations who think long term. European businesses may not be as profitable, but a lot better managed in many ways.
I really want to ignore this issue, particularly because I assume it's water under the bridge, water over the dam, a done deal, etc... Having said that, I waffle on it - it has to be more complicated than it appears (or maybe I'm just missing something):
Just to supplement my earlier, unhelpful, highly ambivalent comment on this thread:
So, there I am, enjoying my nice breakfast in the lounge in the Panama Marriott (where I also enjoyed breakfast and snacks on Sunday - thank you very much), and I overhear the guy at the single or community section in the center of the lounge talking about Marriott loyalty and interesting Marriott properties, and then he says: I've woken up in a Marriott bed every day this year (and then keeps on talking)..... I know there are folks like that out there, and I feel their pain, but I don't normally cross paths with them.
My only point is a simple one. I hope that Marriott treats that guy really well. Specifically, he deserves to be treated better than me - he's earned it. If he's not being treated better than me, something is wrong.
Granted, I know none of this is informative or helpful, but....
Looks like we found another thing to complain about. Now we think the rollover nights dilute the benefits for the rest of us? I guess we should add those pesky credit cards users who gain status by charging, to the list of folks who dilute the program. As someone who stays over 100 nights each year, I guess I am more of a pure platinum than others.
And did you read all the posts? The only one who thought that seems to be the original poster. If anything, the UA - Marriott "reciprocity" is more in contention. Thousands at least to gain elite status without spending a night just by holding a like status with UA getting everything you and the rest of us get whenever they stay, while we get essentially nothing in return. Talk about a slap-in-the-face for elites in Marriott!!! And not very good negotiators, either. Of course, they didn't really care what we were getting, but only all the people they were getting. No wonder Marriott's BOD is trying to get rid of perks for us.
I'm sure there are many who have benefited from it. But the fact remains, that only one person brought up rollover nights as a way of diluting benefits while several have mentioned UA and you jumped in talking about how people were using that as a complaint when it wasn't (except for that one person who still hasn't explained his reasoning to anyone).
I really hope you enjoy saved baggage fees because as a Silver you won't find much else with UA except frustration that you're at the bottom of the food chain in the Premier pecking order.
The problem with a new category of status as I see it then Marriott must come up with a new list of benefits and they've already shown they want to dilute what has previously been available. I don't believe Marriott cares in the least about their long time loyal members, in my opinion we are a liability as most likely we have large balances in MR accounts which they want us to use up and be gone so the can further reduce the number of nights they make available to use points thus putting revenue into their rooms.
You, my friend, have hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head...
The rollover and UA programs are but symptoms of a larger problem. In adding so many new "elite" members, Marriott is not just diluting the benefits available but also eliminating some of the benefits, such as check cashing and welcome gift (now a $10 credit, which, given the price of room service, does not come close to equalling the former gift). Having stayed in excess of 1460 nights at Marriott, almost all for less than three nights stay, with ten years in a row at platinum (most before credit given for non"marriott" hotels) before receiving lifetime platinum, now that it seems almost anyone can receive platinum, it would be nice to see a new category of higher status for long time clients who actually have spent large portions of their career at Marriott. Let me be clear, I have no problem with the new programs but suggest to Marriott that they should also think about their truly "elite" members.
Simply put, those who do not like the problem with the rollover program are the ones who stay a large number of nights several years in a row. They find that with the rollover, there are more elite members and thus less suites and other exclusive rooms available for upgrades. In addition, as Marriott has seen an increase in the number of Platinum elites, they have decreased the benefits available to them. As one example, I used to get upgrades to suites at least a third of the time at full service Marriotts. Now it is rare. I can no longer cash a check or get the same welcome gift. It used to be that when I arrived at a hotel as a platinum elite, or initially with the lifetime platinum elite, the front desk and everyone else would go out of their way to be of assistance. I am not saying service is bad now, but they see platinum elite all of the time so it is no big deal to them. It was nice to be treated especially well after all of the business I have given Marriott, (mine and my employees). I do not want to act like a I am better than everyone else, but I do believe I have earned my status the hard and long way and would like to see that continue to be recognized, with perhaps not new benefits, but a non-dilution and non-elimination of benefits Marriott has provided in the past in recognition of the substantial business the long term platinum elites have given directly to Marriott.
I don't understand what those decrease in benefits that you mentioned (other than a decrease in the number of upgrades) have to do with an increased number of elites. Maybe in that Marriott couldn't keep up with the expense. If so, then why even open up to a vast number of elite benefits by giving them to UA elites?
Are you sure they see Plat. elite all the time, or are they just not trained the way they used to be? It cost money for that training and it doesn't look like Marriott is caring about any expenditures that they used to consider to be important.
I still don't see how the rollover nights are hurting anyone. I don't think you explained it simply or even at all.
And as far as all the nights go, you're talking to the wrong person there.
Let me try to re-word it a bit.
Let's say there were no rollover nights. You and I both show up at a Marriott.There is one upgrade available. You have 100 nights and qualify as PE. I only have 10, but I had 150 rollover so I am also PE. That means 2 of us vying for one upgrade. First one gets it. You have a 50/50 shot.
If there were no rollover nights I wouldn't qualify and there would only be one person (you) vying for the one upgrade. You get it. 100% shot.
Under this scenario, rollover nights cut the value of your upgrades in half because of my competition for them.
Did I miss something or did the OP never reply to any of this?
Anyway... Correct me if I am wrong...
A fellow averages 35 nights a year:
Year 1 = Attains Silver with 10 + 25
Year 2 = Attains Gold with 25 R/Os + 35 (total 60 for the year)
Year 3 = Drops back to Silver since he only stayed 35 nights this year plus the 10 R/Os for a total of 45.
Year 4 = His 35 nights plus 35 R/Os now put him back to Gold.
Year 5 = Retains Gold since he has 35 nights plus his 20 R/Os.
Year 6 = Oops... back to Silver... Only 40 total.
Am I right?
Or is it this way?
Year 1 = Attains Silver with 10 + 25
Year 2 = Attains Gold with 25 R/Os + 35 (total 60 for the year, but no R/Os)
Year 3 = Drops back to Silver since he only stayed 35 nights this year and no R/Os.
Year 4 = His 35 nights plus 25 R/Os now put him back to Gold.
Year 5 = Retains Gold with His 35 nights plus 25 R/Os.
Year 6 = Retains Gold with His 35 nights plus 25 R/Os.
Anyway... I think the Rollover Nights is a good incentive to stay with Marriott for many "noobs" to MR like me. I'll have over 100 night this year and probably more next year, so rollover nights don't really get on my radar except it might make me think about building up my (insert competing hotel rewards program here) account next year since I'll only need 50 nights in a Marriott to retain my Plat status. And since Marriott does not have properties in some of the places I would like to take my beautiful bride, I would like to have a nice large figure on that "other" account.
Does it dilute awards? If I'm only looking for upgrades to suites and some wine and cheese when I check in, then maybe it does. But on the other hand, from a business perspective, I see this as a business decision Marriott to curb some costs and make the stockholders happier with the quarterly report. I'm sure any of you making business decisions do similar things in your company. Sorry, but that Qx report drives TOO many corporations in today's economy and is one of the big problems with the world economy today. No long term vision or even concern. It's all about making a profit every quarter and having a panic attack if the bottom line is red. (Let's bring back some of the old money magnets from the grave and ask them about that... JC Penney, Sam Walton, and a few others would laugh at that idea.)
Anyway... I would agree that there should be some step above and beyond the standard old "Platinum" level and that anyone who attains the LP level by having their butt in Marriott beds for those required nights SHOULD recieve the now defunct check in gift basket and other perks. Afterall, is this not a LOYALTY program? And if you attain that status by staying at Marriotts, then more power to ya...
But as for rollover nights? I'm with IAHFLYER on this one... Add to the list taking away your cell phone rollover minutes. Anyone willing to give them up?
You're right, the OP never responded again.
As to the nights, no nights would be rolled over into year 3 on this basis. The rolled over nights from year 1 would all have been used to attain a level in the 2nd year only. So your 2nd illustration would be right up to that point. The rollover nights are only used to attain a higher status in the year that they actually rolled over.
Year 4 had no rollover nights. I don't remember how many nights it takes for silver. (10?) Gold - 50? Plat. - 75.
In your case, 25 nights would roll over this year. Your total nights next year would be the 100 for this year and the 25 rollover nights, so 125 total nights towards your lifetime plat.
If you stay more than that next year, the 75 nights is still taken from your nights next year with any additional rolled over into the next. So, if you have 125 nights next year, 50 will roll over and 175 nights will be added to you total nights for a total of 300 total nights.
If you stay 35 nights the following year, you will still be plat. by using the 40 nights needed and no nights rolled over, but the 35 nights will be added to your total nights for a total of 335 nights towards your LP.
Since no nights will roll over (not even the 10 extra), you would then need 75 nights that year to stay a plat.
Thank you, 77paris. I had a couple of math errors that I just amended. I first had 5 nights that were extra and it should have been 10. I also had 45 nights needed to make plat. because I first used 30 and then switched to the 35 like the capt was using and forgot to change the others.
to me its simple they have decided to make getting to Platinum easier ( roll over, United, dropping the number for lifetime) and at the same time lessen the value of platinum( arrival gift) I don't think this was by accident. Maybe in the end it makes no sense but looks to me to be a plan
(Looking at iahflyr )
... GIT A ROPE!
(Shades of a Pace Picante Sauce commercial...)
Your rollover workings aren't quite there. Rollovers don't rollover, so taking our guest who "stays" 35 nights with Marriott each year (which may not take that much loyalty, 10 nights are awarded just for holding the free credit card) would see the following pattern:
1/1/10. Joins MR as blue. No nights credit.
31/12/10. 35 nights stayed, silver achieved during Spring. 25 nights in excess over silver stayed.
1/1/11. Starts year as silver, 25 nights rollover from 2010
31/12/11. 35 nights stayed, Gold acheived during Autumn, qualifying till 1/3/13. Counter shows 60 nights credit.
1/1/12. Starts year as Gold. No nights rollover as though counter shows 60 nights, only actually stayed 35 nights last year and rollovers don't rollover.
31/12/12. 35 nights stayed, fails to requalify. Still Gold though.
1/1/13. Starts year as Gold.
1/3/13. Busted down to Silver.
31/12/13. 35 nights stayed during year, 25 in excess over silver
1/1/14. Starts year as silver, 25 nights rollover from 2013 (Same as 1/1/11)
31/12/14. Same as 31/12/11
1/1/15. Same as 1/1/12
31/12/15. Same as 31/12/12
1/1/16. Same as 1/1/13
1/3/16. Same as 1/3/13
31/12/16. Same as 31/12/13
Etc, etc, etc.
As a result our guest is Gold half the time (Autumn one year to Spring 18 months later) and Silver the other half. Bearing in mind every year he does stay 2/3rds of the requirement for Gold, this seems fair.
Finally, as a matter of interest his lifetime total over this 7 year period is 320 nights, nearly 2/3rds to LTGold, which as stated above could mean a relatively smaller stay total than one might think with the free credit card, our above guest may have stayed only 175 nights butt-in-bed. Mind you he'll struggle to get the pro rata points, if he stayed at an average rate of $150/night, scoring an average of 2500 points per night inc credit card points and those mainly cert based megabonuses, his lifetime points would stand at 435,000, only 1/4 of the points necessary to reach LTGold...
Re: Room Upgrade This post explains the rollover nights conundrum. We have so many more elites with rollover nights that post is spot on. "One hotel manager that I talked to said that there are nights when 25% of the hotel are elite members. That, I believe is the problem."
I think jerryl may have hit the nail on the head with his answer.
"to me its simple they have decided to make getting to Platinum easier ( roll over, United, dropping the number for lifetime) and at the same time lessen the value of platinum( arrival gift) I don't think this was by accident. Maybe in the end it makes no sense but looks to me to be a plan"
As far as the 1000 nights in 4 years, that's true, but it also means that you had a lot of paid stays like my husband.
His are like this. 2010 - 1/2 year is 182 nights or 100 plus rollover, 2011 - at least 390 nights is 315 rollovers or more; 2012 - about 399 nights and 324 rollovers. Both of you would have gotten the needed nights anyway. With rollover, if he or anyone gets sick or doesn't travel or stay in a Marriott for a year, the status is maintained through prior overages, or a way of rewarding past loyalties.
The real problem, IMO as well as others, is the UA "reciprocity". You mentioned 50,000 estimated in your example above. How many do you estimate in UA elites? There's the real rub.
Now I'm not saying that the program is not being diluted by things going on here, but one thing we do need to consider is the proportion of rooms Marriott has to the number of elites of each level. If Marriott has added enough rooms to cover the increase, then maybe we have nothing to complain about...
I'm sure that's not the case, but hey... It is one consideration we tend to overlook. Being an old statistician, I think of things like this though...
For someone like myself, I ended 2013 with 47 nights, 3 shy of Gold. Frankly, I would have been really disappointed to lose all those nights when I got my last 3 nights in the first two weeks of 2014.
I'm all for the rollover, otherwise I'd just be a Silver Member with way too many nights that I never see anything for.
Those new to the program are happy with the rollover nights and reduced LT levels. But those "old timers" like myself are not pleased as we earned LT status and yearly PP status via paid nights and spend (no rollovers, no bonus nights via Visa, 3M level for LTP, etc.). Take an analogy -->
If a career attorney reads that the ABA was considering requiring only an Associates Degree (vs BS), 1 year of law school (vs 3), and a 50% pass rate (vs 75%) on the Bar exam to become an attorney, there would be a LOT of lawsuits to stop this proposal and would likely succeed.
Old timers had no say in the easing of MR qualifications and as such, are less likely to support these programs.
Agree with you it also called " pull up the ladder boys I'm aboard" . It's obvious to me that Marriott is making it easier to get status and ultimately lifetime status and making it more difficult to use the status like the annual inflating of the hotel categories but they are a profit making organization if it was hurting their bottom line they would change so in meantime as a lifetime platinum I just roll with the punches
And the concept can sometimes works to the advantage of the 'old shoes' like ourselves. I went to schools (before cable, but we did have color tv) that have gone on to greatly enhance their reputation (meaning I probably couldn't get in today!).
Like you say, 'roll with the punches' - nothing to it, but to do it.
Yep, that's the reality of today's market. The inexorable tide of Marriott's financial success marches forward.
Here's a bit of good news A New Treasure for the Autograph Collection - Marriott News Center
Marriott picking up the Atlantis at Paradise Island in the Bahamas.
What also caught my eye was the figure 45 million Reward members. It was less than three years ago that the number was below 40. Oh well, book 'em while you can.
I am all for Marriott making huge profits if that makes a better customer experience by reinvesting into their hotels, programs, etc. No complaints here. I am also not complaining that categories keep going up, more points required for freebies, and other devaluations of points. That demonstrates profit motive supporting my first statement.
What I do feel is wrong is to dilute the statuses of the MR program. Status (at least to me) can mean more that the points I earn - IF my status can get me more upgrades, better recognition, ability to book hotels when sold out, etc. I look at the points I earn as simply a perk of the program but not a requirement of the program. As I have posted a few times (best example is here Loyalty Points - A Twisted View on Value ), if I have to pay more for a room to have a Marriott venue (and receive the perks offered by having a status), then those points I earn are opportunity costs and in effect, cost me money to earn - they are not "free." In essence, I book Marriott to leverage my status in hopes status does make a difference.
My last phrase says it all (in hopes status does make a difference). Twenty years ago, to have P-status was awesome and I sensed my status really made a difference. Over the last ten years of PP-status, I have observed the perks and recognition have declined year-over-year, especially when trying to "leverage my weight owning/earning the highest-level status possible" to get a special perk or consideration such as a suite, a better view, free breakfast, complimentary drink, etc. or whatever the case may be. Only two explanations are possible for this decline: